Kevin and Aisha: Emotion, identity and an unexpected detective agency

In our second episode, guests Kevin Harman and Aisha Holloway talk about emotion, identity and an unexpected detective agency.

Kevin is a contemporary artist working across Scotland. Born in Wester Hailes, Kevin was the first generation of his family to pursue education graduating from Edinburgh College of Art with a BA in Sculpture, followed by an MFA in Sculpture. Kevin’s work spans across mediums including paintings, sculptures, prints, photographs and drawings. It is often based on elements of performance and an engagement with found materials and environments. Driven towards creating a better society, Kevin is passionate about community and holding those in power accountable.

Aisha is a Registered Nurse, Professor of Nursing Studies at the University of Edinburgh, and Co-Director of the Edinburgh Global Nursing Initiative. Aisha is an advocate for nursing and bringing wider recognition to the societal role that it plays and her programme of research aims to reduce the risks and harms of alcohol in society, influencing and shaping alcohol policy. A self-proclaimed extrovert, Aisha is passionate about fighting inequalities and has an affinity for the underdog. 

As usual we start with an object, but in season five we celebrate hidden corners and unexpected connections. Subscribe now for University of Edinburgh community exploration and really good chat.

You can find more information on the Sharing things website.

Graphic images designed by Chris Behr. They are part of his Nice Things icon set.

Transcript

Ayanda  0:05  Hello, howzit? Welcome to Sharing things. I'm Ayanda, your new host for Season Five. As usual, we've gathered to listen to conversations from members of our community. Let's go on a journey together while we discover the little things that connect us. In this episode, we hear from Aisha Holloway and Kevin Harman. Okay, so we're just gonna start off by just introducing ourselves.

Aisha  0:35  Alright, okay, so I'm Aisha Holloway. I am Professor of Nursing Studies. I also dabble in a little other initiative called the Global-- Edinburgh Global Nursing Initiative. So I'm a nurse by background and I'm still a registered nurse.

Ayanda  0:52  Oh nice, nice. Kevin? 

Kevin  0:55  I'm Kevin Harman. I am a contemporary artist. I live in Edinburgh. I work in Glasgow, and I run a project space art gallery in Edinburgh. Yeah, so my, my connection with Edinburgh University is I done my BA at Edinburgh College of Art and then I done my MA at Edinburgh College of Art.

Aisha  1:18  Oh, wow. See that blows my mind, because in here is an artist waiting to get out [laughs]. When you said that's what you are, I was like [gasps], this is so good.

Kevin  1:34  You can extract-- extract some of the art out.

Aisha  1:38  Yes, yeah. We'll be working together by the end of this conversation, I can tell you [laughs]. 

Ayanda  1:49  We have a good show up ahead. I'm really excited about that. So I'll just go ahead and introduce myself, officially. My name is Ayanda Ngobeni. I am an incoming fourth year law student. Yeah, I'm like, I'm really excited to hear from you guys. I understand your both Scottish?

Aisha  2:05  Yes, ish. Yes. Born in Scotland, but Scottish mother, Sudanese father. So a little bit of a variety going on there.

Ayanda  2:15  I'm quite interested in your, in your Sudanese background, because you know, when you said that, I'm African so I just got like, really excited. Do you just want to like go into that a little bit more? 

Aisha  2:25  Yeah, well, I guess-- I was a child of the 70s. So I was born in 1970. And I guess coming from that kind of background that was quite unusual in Scotland, particularly. So, yeah, I mean, I've lived in Scotland all my life, but I have this background that's quite different to most people. And having grown up that was quite a challenge at times being quite different, and probably has made me the person I am today. Yeah, I'm always talking about the, the Nubian Pharaohs, or the black Pharaohs and why we don't teach our children about these things. All we hear about is the Egyptians and of course, Sudan, the north of Sudan was part of Egypt, many centuries ago. So lots of really interesting things around, yeah, that bit of my life, I guess. Yeah. 

Ayanda  3:21  Yeah, that's quite interesting. And I just wanted to just understand how that has affected who you are today and how it shaped you.

Aisha  3:29  Oh, yeah. I mean, probably completely to the core, I think if you're an outsider, or you perceive yourself to be an outsider, and others also as well, just because you're different, you know, the colour of your skin, your hair, the way you look. And you become quite aware of that quite soon in life just because of people's reactions to you. And I think I'm always rooting for the underdog. 

Ayanda  3:57  Yeah. 

Aisha  3:58  And I think my mum played quite a strong role in my life, because I guess she had also to deal with some challenges around who her partner was. And I would ask her why people were saying things to me because I look different. I mean, it sounds so simple, everyone should be treated the same, but we know that's not true. So I think I've always maybe tried to feel like I belong somewhere. And a career in nursing was an interesting one for me, because people need you in nursing, don't they? They're ill, they need you  and for me, I probably gravitated towards people needing me because then you belong to something. So yeah, but I think my work in the research I do around people with alcohol related harm, people in prisons, people who face stigma or feel like at times they perhaps don't belong, it kind of resonates with me. So I'm always-- if there is a cause I will march for it, or I will fight for it, or inequalities I really find difficult to deal with. So I kind of, yeah ...

Ayanda  5:14  That's so powerful. 

Aisha  5:16  ... get quite, quite excited about all that stuff.

Ayanda  5:19  Yeah, and Kevin, is there any part of-- you know, what is your heritage? And maybe, is there any part of like your identity that has significantly shaped who you are today? 

Kevin  5:29  I suppose my parents are both Scottish. We've got a little bit Irish kicking about, bit of Lithuanian, my grand-- my grandfather is from Lithuania. He and I used to say about underdog type thing and if there's something to fight for, you go for it. Well, definitely from a different sort of perspective, but when you come from-- it's a council estate in, in Edinburgh, in Wester Hailes. We sort of were born there, brought up there. There was a lot of drug and alcohol use and all this kind of stuff. But we managed to somehow, not somehow it was definitely due to, due to my mum, who, who kind of guided us and sort of helped us out quite a bit. Got us to sort of prioritise education and whatnot and went through and came through a system, which was-- I felt it looked after us when you got into it, we were definitely encouraged to, to go on to further education and whatnot. But the way, the way it kind of happened for myself and my eldest brother, we are the first ones to go to further education within our whole family infrastructure, cousins, and aunties and uncles, and grandparents. So it's quite a big thing, actually, you know, you have a bit of fire, and you want to do, you want to do for others, perhaps what came your way. And if you're in that position that you can, and maybe you do have a sort, say, around the table, and the tables that I'm around increasingly, I'm able to contribute to helping perhaps the kids in sort of more difficult situations and whatnot. It's funny, you try, you try to get away, not get away from a place, but you leave a place to go and venture further and bet-- not better yourself, you know, better yourself? That, that's not really a-- it's something else, something alternative to that, but then you end up back at the place as a, as someone who is a sort of kid done well, and giving talks to, to the kids and go back to the school and I can smell the school dinners. And it reminds me, that recall that happens when you go into these places that. That's the kind of the little bit of the background that we found ourselves in. 

Aisha  7:48  So, so interesting. I can, I really-- it resonates with me as well, first person to go to university in my family. And in fact, links a little bit to the object. I've got it here. It's this little picture of me, age 12. 

Ayanda  7:53  Oh, that is so adorable [laughs]

Aisha  8:03  I have it on my desk there, wherever I've been, and to remind myself where I've come from. And it's not to say that it's about, look at me now, but it's almost like the journey you've taken. If you've not necessarily come from a more privileged background, but like Kevin, I had a mum who really taught me to believe I could do anything I wanted, encouraged me. I look at that and I think, who was that 12-year-old? I just wanted to be the same as everyone else. I didn't want to have a different colour skin. I knew I was happy with me. It was just a challenging landscape. And when you're that age, you do want to be like everyone else-- well maybe not, I don't know, but that's what I felt. And it took me a long time to find that I could be me and make a difference. I didn't have to look and be and sound like everybody else. So that's my, my special little thing. And people must think why she got a picture of herself. But it literally is, I've got to be true to myself remind myself of the journey here and how you can-- I always felt that I wasn't like everyone else, like how do you make a difference? Or how do you impact when you're not the same as everyone else in the room? I'm a little bit of an extrovert, I have to admit. And I'm not a rule breaker, but I just think I, I'm the same as the person who's running this place. The principal, you know, he's a human being, I'm a human being or whoever is in roles where it's like authority, and I'm like, really, we're all the same. We need to work together to make change happen. So I'll just do it and people are a bit like, oh, crikey, what's she doing now? But I learned quite late on, when I was in my 40s that I could be who I wanted to be. And it almost like freed me a little bit from myself, the things that were getting in the way. I was actually getting in the way of myself, I was worrying too much about it all, even still at 40, I'm 51 now and I've kind of come, it's a little bit like finding a bit of peace with yourself.

Ayanda  10:22  And I think we actually have a lot in common as well, because I'm also the first one to go to university. And I also had to, you know, there was a mountain to climb like, yeah, carrying that baton [laughter]. Yes, I definitely relate to that on so many levels. I'm the first one to go to university, I'm also, there was so many struggles that I had to fight to actually even get the opportunity to come. It's a beautiful thing. But also sometimes I think it comes with that weight, knowing that you are that person for your family, and you know, you have to carry them forward. And the whole thing on authority, I have that as well. I need to get it in check [laughter]. 

Kevin  11:07  I've got it to such an extent, I've start-- I've started a private detective agency, following people in positions of influence within the government-funded art sector. So I have private detectives, following people, gathering information on where they're from, who they, who-- what schools they went to, what, what their family infrastructure is. I'm sort of gathering this portfolio of all these different heads. And I will at some point exhibit it all as a display, probably within the detective agency shop. I just believe that I can probably join some dots to certain things. And that's when you exhibit it then you have a discussion about what is this? and who are the heads of these places? and whatnot. And I'm not pointing any fingers, you know, this is, this is just genuinely looking and to gather as much information as I can on the people who run the places that are really influential. So when it comes to authority, I like it, but I want to know what my authorities are-- who they are [laughs]. 

Ayanda  12:12  Yeah. And I'm quite intrigued by that. I just-- I'm curious to know, where did that come from? Because I know earlier we were talking about making a difference. So where did that fire come from?

Kevin  12:24  The beginning of it was-- I took over a shop in Glasgow because I was wanting to create a series of shops that on the face looked like they were going to open but they were shops that would never open. But it looked like they were, so it was a bit of street theatre if you like. So the idea that this thing was arriving in a part of a town, seeing how the residents reacted to this, this thing. And I sort of set the place up with all the kind of certificates of like authenticating us as polygraph testers, and this sort of looked like a private detective agency, but it didn't function as one. And as, as a result of that I found myself spending a lot of time in the shop and thinking hold on, I wonder what steps I could take to then start actually having an even more of a legitimate detective agency. And so I spoke to my lawyers and asked them about using, using private detectives to carry out things that I felt was gonna actually do something a little bit more, add a little bit more meat to the, to the initial idea. And then with, with that the sort of focal points of investigation became probably the, the industry that I'm in. I mean, it makes sense to work within what you know, or who you know, rather than sort of been a bit scattergun with it. And it comes through performance, I think, I think there was a, I think there was a heavy sway towards a performative element where I wanted to maybe create a performance within someone. If I say a name that, that for example, I'll be doing the research on and carrying out reconnaissance and doing all that kind of stuff. If they hear that they're getting followed, they might start behaving in a manner which is you know, better, better. So it's kinda like that. So you, you're kind of forcing performance if you like, or some, some sort of thing like that, you know. 

Ayanda  14:33  Do you want to go into your object, Kevin, because I think you're-- from what we've heard, there's a lot that you're doing. 

Kevin  14:41  Yeah, definitely. I think it's important to be sort of nimble and be able to adjust your ideas, when--as and when it's appropriate. I'm not really stuck on one belief or, or not. If I hear something that I feel is going to develop something in a positive way I'll adjust to that, and I'll listen and, and we, we grow projects rather than just me being quite static with it. So I have my, my Leatherman multi tool, which is a high quality multi tool that has like a variety different knives has a little, a little bottle opener, that's key [laughter]. It's got little pliers, and it's got, yeah a whole load of other, whole load of other, other instruments that come in to day-to-day use. But four days ago, I was up in Nairn, and a friend's son was playing at the park with his transformer toy. I picked up a, an off cut of like a root of a tree. And he didn't see me doing this, but I carved a little face into it and whatnot, and a little sort of smiley face on it and I gave him the root and then he played out this whole story with this transformer and this little root with the face and off he, you know off he went having great fun with it. And it was that sort of story, you created this little story through just whittling a little face in something and just letting him-- so, I find it's quite, it's quite useful for that. Yeah, just sort of being able to adapt to a situation and stuff I think is pretty good. 

Ayanda  16:23  That's so-- so, so cool. And I'm wondering, Aisha like, would you in your profession as a nurse, would you say there's that multi tool that you have as well, that is your go to no matter what? It could be physical or it could be a mindset? 

Aisha  16:38  Yeah, I think it's a mindset, interestingly. I think a lot of the conversations we have at the moment around nursing is, as I guess, in the profession, we understand or we experience society valuing us because we've seen it with Covid, by people clapping. But actually, underneath that there is a frustration, because it's not that we, we don't appreciate the clapping, it's just that the-- probably the emotional labour of this thing that we do is so intense at times or so linked to who we are. You're not a nurse, separate to an individual, you're-- the two are-- a colleague, actually, she said Aisha, if we cut you in half, you'd have nurse in the middle, because it's part of who you are, it's like a bit of rock. And I think the majority of nurses are like that. So it is the ability to deal with the complexities that we are faced with. So I-- you can be a nurse, midwife, healthcare professional, you can be there at the most joyful times of a baby being born or you know, celebration, and at the most challenging times where you are with somebody as they take their last breath, holding their hand, dealing with their relatives, or dealing with trauma. And the scale of that, and what that takes to do that, and the complexities that can be very technical, if you work in intensive care, or something like that, I used to work in intensive care in, in alcohol related harm, you're working more very much at an emotional level often. So you're kind of-- you're flexing constantly your compassion, your technical skills, your knowledge. And I think people's understanding of what nursing is and does and can do and the impact of it is not very well understood. And I think part of that is we don't articulate it enough as a profession. Because we just are historically women's work, we would perceive ourselves being quite lower down the chain in the medical health hierarchy. So we just get on with it. This thing often overused, do we have a voice? Yeah, we have a voice but where can we use that voice? Where is our space? And how can we advocate and give voice to others? Probably the most rewarding project I worked on was a project called Photo Voice, where we used photography and images for people in recovery, who were in recovery from alcohol. The-- probably one of the smallest projects I've done, but oh wow. We had exhibitions and the people we worked with, we're still colleagues now. And these people, their story would blow your mind. And you think if I've been able to be a little part of that, the nurses are at the bedside, but they are everywhere in society which gives them that greater ability to impact change and to make a difference.

[Theme music]

What I really took from that is the, the way you used your art, you said you were a creative, and I'm quite intrigued by that and just looking at the work that you do Kevin as well. It's about making a difference through your art. So I was just wondering when in your career as well did you realise that you could use your art as a means of putting a message out there? 

Kevin  20:27  I can reckon probably third year of art college. I think you go through the process of them kind of breaking down what your whole ideas of art was, is and then rebuilding you and then eventually get to a point I felt like, it was in in third year where I realised there was some bigger things at play. And rather than just putting certain things on the wall, or sculptures in a space and whatnot, I felt like actually I could do projects that would be quite impactful in a sort of more societal way. And it would open up a whole dialogue. Understanding that if-- the way, that way of thinking I can create these debates and these discussions and hopefully through that we get-- we go forward. You know, once those ingredients all started making sense, it was like right, okay, it can be anything and everything. And I mean, I think about, I'm thinking about the bookends of the emotions that, that Aisha worked through like, the deathbed, the deathbed situation and the birth situation and like, I've got goosebumps thinking about it, because I mean that, that's colossal. Probably something that, like makes you-- even when you start thinking about it, it's, it's actually so big that--. I spoke to a friend actually, not so long ago, and I had that feeling when everyone was going out clapping for the nurses and my partner works as an auxiliary nurse. 

Aisha  21:50  [Gasps] fantastic. 

Kevin  21:51  And she was like, oh god, I don't know how I feel about this ...

Aisha  21:54  Yes! 

Kevin  21:54  ... she's in the house, you know, and I'm at the window clapping but yet I, I felt, I felt pretty bad actually about even clapping. It put me in that-- I kind of wanted to do-- have an appreciation, appreciation of my thinking, but not in -- it just felt a bit futile, somehow and maybe a bit cringy. But I started thinking about putting together like something, a proposal for a non military based national service all based around care and you actually have some system set up, whether that's getting animals in schools and showing care through animals and then developing it through that way and-- but it was something that was like I'm gonna, I'll invest-- I was gonna get a team, a team together, just get a, get a sort of pack, a blueprint, perhaps of what might-- that might look like. But I was wondering-- there was another question for Aisha, like when you're nursing people, and you think that they're more of an underdog that you're nursing, do they get better care? [Laughter]

Aisha  22:54  [Laughs] no, they don't [laughter]. You could flip it on its side. I mean, I think it's about-- I think it's like everything, you know, you come across everyone in society and here's the thing that you learn from day one is that everyone is equal. If the consistency is that everyone gets the same care, because they are as equal to someone else. A bit like doctors have the Hippocratic oath, nurses don't have that but there is a-- it's, it's in you it's part of, it's, it's just part of what you do and your partner will be doing the same. You know everyone in that health profession is, is there for a purpose. It's to take away pain and pain it can be physical, emotional, its to provide comfort. They're not basic things. I don't like that word. There's no such thing as basic care. There's essential care. 

Ayanda  23:54  Yes. 

Aisha  23:55  You know, there's nothing basic about caring for somebody because there is an emotional connection. There's that, the thing I-- the emotional labour, being aware of that. Emotional labour is really important in self care. You know, how can you care for others if you're not caring for yourself? And even when I'm speaking it sounds quite simple, but it's a huge challenge for all of us to take care of ourselves, and particularly in society at the minute I think it's, woah golly, I saw-- I hadn't looked at the news for a couple of days and I saw it this morning I was like, god I don't know if I can watch this.

Ayanda  24:38  Kevin, how much of your work involves that emotion?

Kevin  24:42  It overrides, like so much. Oh god, if I'm sitting idle, I feel like what am I doing? Like I'm able-bodied. I am fortunate enough to have all my limbs. I've got something in my head, I can put things together. If I'm sitting idle and I'm not using this and I'm not doing the best-- so I need to maximise this, the usage of this and some of the emotions that I get are like, absolutely driven towards creating a better society. I see, it's not about just me and my family, it's about the community that looks after everybody. And if we can concentrate on that and make that a bit better things, things can get better, things, things can become sort of warmer and generous, you know. And so-- sorry, I get like that part, that emotion comes out and I try, I try probably try to do too much. So kind of looking after yourself is important, I think that's sometimes maybe neglected when ambition and vision keep you jumping towards the edge [laughter]. 

Ayanda  25:53  I am guilty of that crime 100%. Last year, I, I ran for elections at the University, at the Students Association and I ran to be Black and Ethnic Minority Officer. And I remember that was so heavy for me because you, you are responsible for so many people and you are their voice and you have to make the difference. And I took that upon myself and I've been told so many times, you need to relax Ayanda, you need to, you know, take care of yourself. And I absolutely burn out. I am still learning how to do it. But I just find myself just throwing myself into my passions and throwing myself into, into things and self care is something that I still need to work on. But I get that emotion just really, just takes over, it takes over. But it's such-- I think it's one of those things that make you feel alive, you know. 

Aisha  26:48  Yeah! 

Ayanda  26:52  And I want to take it back to your object Aisha. Spoken about what we, we have spoken about in terms of emotion and all that experience and who you are today, what would you say to 12-year-old you?

Aisha  27:06  Oh, gosh, what would I say? Oh, I don't know [exhales]. I really-- okay. Being I think, being generous and being kind to others in, in spite of someone not being kind to you. I think that's the thing. And, and, really, I, you know, I kind of go a lot on emotions and how I feel, and I guess it's about believing in that. That kind of-- I never, I never had a vision, it was always just about, I talk about visions, now because I guess that's what you're supposed to do when you get to my age in your job, you're like, I've got a vision [laughs]. But, um, yeah, it was just, I always wanted to make a difference. And I think maybe it's about if you want to make a difference, and it's for good, then just go for it, go for it. And don't be afraid to ask for help. I think that's the other thing, I, I would not have got here and I'm talking about here in like, as a whole person, not just my job or my position or whatever it is I'm doing, you know. Without others, other people's generosity, and I wrote generous down just as you were saying it, how weird? On my little bit of paper, generous, and kindness and like others have lifted me up. And I think that's the one thing I might say to myself, actually probably is the one thing: this is not about you Aisha, this is about everyone else, and lifting people up, like you've experienced. Helping others to be the best they can be and giving people opportunity. It was never about me getting to somewhere it was about me being able to get to somewhere to be able to make a change. I don't even know if I'm making sense actually. I don't know.

Ayanda  29:14  I was agreeing with everything. I was like mm hm, the whole time. So for me, completely comes together. And same question to you, Kevin. What would you say to 12-year-old you? 

Kevin  29:25  I was thinking about that when you were saying it. I was listening and I'm going like yep, yep, definitely. Just this, there's this little voice going like, just say it, just say it and I'm like no don't say it. 'Don't be such a little arse' [laughter]. 

Ayanda  29:42  Oh my word. Why, why is that? I'm intrigued.  

Kevin  29:47  Well, my teachers, you know, my report cards and that, I was just absolutely uncontrollable. In the classroom, I was just a fiasco. I was just, just doing things that were outrageous and-- but then again, you kind of look at it and you analyse it and you go, well, no one picked up on the dyslexia, no one picked up on the stigmatism in my eye, like, I couldn't read properly. So I was really distracted and kind of had to find another way of like being present and interested or something. So...

Aisha  30:18  Kevin, do you know what? I love that: was a fiasco. I love that. I think that's brilliant. I did experience some teachers who were just like, oh, she's just too much in terms of too much to say. But actually, and I look back at my report card, and it was, you know, Aisha distracts others because she's, she's done her work, she's whatever, she's just distracting people. I might have said that to my 12-year-old self, wind your neck in. Wind your neck in a little bit and just maybe listen a bit more. I have had to learn to reign that in a little bit and just kind of think, okay, how do others experience me? You know, because it can be too much. It was more that I just wanted something to happen and needed, you know, just come on, what is everyone sitting here for? [Laughs]. 

Ayanda  31:17  If you had to pick one word to describe the special objects you brought with you today. What would it be?

Kevin  31:25  I'm looking, I'm looking out the window at the trees, like thinking, come on give me something. Be prepared, I think. Something like that, maybe. 

Ayanda  31:40  But I think be prepared is quite a good one as well because it, it does do the multitasking things and you are prepared for, for everything. 

Kevin  31:48  Be prepared, be prepared or I don't know? Nimble! Be nimble, nimble.

Ayanda  31:54  And what about you Aisha, what would be that one word? Your time on the hot seat [laughter]. 

Aisha  31:59  [Laughs] thanks Kevin, because you've given me time. So I was, I was thinking about what were the tracks or the albums that you-- were important to me or like at key moments in my life in my 20s, when I was still trying to work out who I was, probably still am now. And there's a Travis song called Walking in the Sun. And I was listening to it the other day and I was like, this is, this is-- life is about walking in the sun. And if I look at that picture, Aisha, I think, I think you're walking in the sun, not every day. But that's what I want to do. I think that's that difference is about just life. Although it's so challenging, and there's these awful things going on, we have to be positive. And yeah, walking in the sun. That's my new thing. So that's what it is.

Ayanda  32:54  Honestly, that, that was beautiful. And that brings us to the end of our recording today. Thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation. And I just want to say this, I feel so much better because I feel like I'm not the only one who's just has all this energy just bursting inside of them wanting to do everything. You know, I, I feel validated today, thank you so much for that [laughter]. 

Aisha  33:22  You know this, it's so great when you meet other people that are the same as you because sometimes you do-- I just think seriously, am I really the only person here who's like maybe a little bit over the top? A little bit off, a little bit, I do know a little bit what, like, you know? [Laughs]. 

Kevin  33:42  I think I've got a question to ask you Aisha, my friend would thank me if I asked you. He would ask, can someone more pedestrian complete complex surgery based on confidence?

Aisha  33:54  [Laughs] well, here's the thing. It's, so this isn't a direct, a direct question, but here's an interesting fact. We have this amazing project in Liberia. So I really love my global work and have been involved in these amazing projects looking at, you know, nurses in Africa or low and middle income countries. And we have this amazing project in Liberia where they have a hugely high level of maternal and childhood mortality rates because they don't have any obstetricians. I think there's about six medical obstetricians in the country. And there are lots of remote and rural areas that they don't have health access to. And this project is with a charity, the MCAI and these amazing couple, David and Rhona, who we're collaborating with, with the University, the Global Health Academy and the Burdett Trust. And we're, we're educating and supporting midwives to undertake surgery, because there are no, there are no medics to do that, there are no obstetricians. So the-- here we go, people don't think nurses or other people can do things other than this highly qualified, trained surgeon. And here we are spending three or four years educating these people to meet a health need. And so what we're saying is not every nurse and midwife needs to do this. If we want to solve these hugely difficult problems, we need to think about them in a different way. And that's one of the ways. So I don't know if that answers the question. 

Kevin  35:38  Yes, I'll tell him yes! 

Aisha  35:43  There are these amazing people in Liberia, midwives saving mother's lives and children's lives.

Ayanda  35:51  That is amazing. So yes, there's your answer. All right. 

Aisha  35:58  Kevin, it's been so lovely meeting you. I will be in touch, I'm sure. 

Kevin  36:01  Definitely, definitely. Yeah, loads, loads to sort of over chew over.

Aisha  36:06  I know, and think about, yeah. 

Ayanda  36:13  Hey there, thanks for listening. You can subscribe to our channel on your favourite podcast platform. Or check out our website to find out more about our guests. See you next time.

Kate  36:39  I hope you've enjoyed meeting members of our University of Edinburgh community. To connect with more join Platform One, our online meeting place for students, alumni and staff of the University. To find out more search Platform One Edinburgh. 

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